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Charlie Hatchett
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
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Location: Austin, Texas
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Charlie Hatchett
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 898
Location: Austin, Texas
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Charlie Hatchett
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 898
Location: Austin, Texas
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Charlie Hatchett
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
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Location: Austin, Texas
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DavidCampbell
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Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 436
Location: Occupied Republic of Texas
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 Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Charlie Hatchett wrote: | | DavidCampbell wrote: | Horse and bovid would be appropriate for a Clovis or preClovis site. I've found a few camel teeth on the North Sulphur as well, which turns up a few Clovis, more Folsom and a lot of Archaic artifacts. I hope you bone up on preservation techniques for these finds should the occasion to get them professionally dated come up in the future. Solutrean people were especially fond of horseflesh and I would assume Clovis as well, though not as many horse bones have been found in Clovis sites. On the other hand a huge bed of horse bones was found down at Lake Chapala in Mexico which suggest they were the victims of a mass kill similar to bison kills further north.
Might I suggest that you start a separate thread for the bones and maybe the handaxes and projectile points as well just to make navigation easier? I've gotten some positive feedback on your handaxes a while back. Also I'm thinking maybe we should have some galleries on the main pages showcasing your best examples of each category; points, axes, metal artifacts and bones. Sort them out and I'll have my son put them up in the galleries. Be selective.
ETA: That seal bone you found deserves top billing. Any further data on it? |
Hi David.
I was just responding to your pm, but I'll kill two birds with one stone here.
There's an osteologist that's been helping me sort out the bones from the site. What a blessing! Speaking of horses, I think I found another horse tooth this morning at Unit Romeo. I'll post that in a bit. Interesting tidbit about the Solutreans and horseflesh. 
No problem separating out the artifacts into the categories you've suggested. Give me a week or two to get er' done. I'll try to sort them out in what I think is descending order. No further findings on the seal bone. The osteologist is fairly convinced it is indeed a seal mandible.
I'm sure you've noticed I've pulled off of Archaeologica. This has nothing to do with Michelle or Bob (Min), and I consider both to be friends. If you'd like, you might invite Min, Michelle, Cog, Beag, Digit, etc…to join in on the discussions about the central Texas artifacts on this forum. I’ve considered this forum home base from the very beginning. I remember Frank introducing me to you; you introducing me to Virginia; Virginia introducing me to Jim Bischoff (USGS- U-Th dating); and Jim introducing me to Warren Sharp, Berkeley Geochronology Center. It’s been a cool ride so far, ey?? Thanks for your help, Bro.
Onward through the fog. |
Beags, Bob, and Cog are already members and welcome to comment anytime. I'm not a member of Archaeologica but you might send PM's to Digit, Michelle and others interested to jump in if they so desire. Just remind them to give me some clue in the registration as to who they are. I'm still getting fake spam registrations which are generally easy to spot although this last one from EducationNetwork is a bit more problematic and I've emailed them for further verification. About the only rules here are: keep it PG, the flames on low and in the Americas as much as possible.
_________________
David Campbell
"The going's getting weird, so I'm turning pro." |
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Charlie Hatchett
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 898
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| DavidCampbell wrote: | | Charlie Hatchett wrote: | | DavidCampbell wrote: | Horse and bovid would be appropriate for a Clovis or preClovis site. I've found a few camel teeth on the North Sulphur as well, which turns up a few Clovis, more Folsom and a lot of Archaic artifacts. I hope you bone up on preservation techniques for these finds should the occasion to get them professionally dated come up in the future. Solutrean people were especially fond of horseflesh and I would assume Clovis as well, though not as many horse bones have been found in Clovis sites. On the other hand a huge bed of horse bones was found down at Lake Chapala in Mexico which suggest they were the victims of a mass kill similar to bison kills further north.
Might I suggest that you start a separate thread for the bones and maybe the handaxes and projectile points as well just to make navigation easier? I've gotten some positive feedback on your handaxes a while back. Also I'm thinking maybe we should have some galleries on the main pages showcasing your best examples of each category; points, axes, metal artifacts and bones. Sort them out and I'll have my son put them up in the galleries. Be selective.
ETA: That seal bone you found deserves top billing. Any further data on it? |
Hi David.
I was just responding to your pm, but I'll kill two birds with one stone here.
There's an osteologist that's been helping me sort out the bones from the site. What a blessing! Speaking of horses, I think I found another horse tooth this morning at Unit Romeo. I'll post that in a bit. Interesting tidbit about the Solutreans and horseflesh.
No problem separating out the artifacts into the categories you've suggested. Give me a week or two to get er' done. I'll try to sort them out in what I think is descending order. No further findings on the seal bone. The osteologist is fairly convinced it is indeed a seal mandible.
I'm sure you've noticed I've pulled off of Archaeologica. This has nothing to do with Michelle or Bob (Min), and I consider both to be friends. If you'd like, you might invite Min, Michelle, Cog, Beag, Digit, etc…to join in on the discussions about the central Texas artifacts on this forum. I’ve considered this forum home base from the very beginning. I remember Frank introducing me to you; you introducing me to Virginia; Virginia introducing me to Jim Bischoff (USGS- U-Th dating); and Jim introducing me to Warren Sharp, Berkeley Geochronology Center. It’s been a cool ride so far, ey?? Thanks for your help, Bro.
Onward through the fog. |
Beags, Bob, and Cog are already members and welcome to comment anytime. I'm not a member of Archaeologica but you might send PM's to Digit, Michelle and others interested to jump in if they so desire. Just remind them to give me some clue in the registration as to who they are. I'm still getting fake spam registrations which are generally easy to spot although this last one from EducationNetwork is a bit more problematic and I've emailed them for further verification. About the only rules here are: keep it PG, the flames on low and in the Americas as much as possible. |
Sounds fair enough. So we can still talk smack about the orthodox if the urge arises?  
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Charlie Hatchett
www.preclovis.com
http://forum.preclovis.com/
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DavidCampbell
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 436
Location: Occupied Republic of Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Absolutely. I do my best to keep the orthodox riffraff out of here. 
_________________
David Campbell
"The going's getting weird, so I'm turning pro." |
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Charlie Hatchett
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 898
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| DavidCampbell wrote: | | Absolutely. I do my best to keep the orthodox riffraff out of here. |
I'm sure they're lurking...
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Charlie Hatchett
www.preclovis.com
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Beagle
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 31
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Interesting tidbit about the Solutreans and horseflesh.
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Charlie, I would be interested to hear anything you may have on this. Are you thinking that a Solutrean culture may have extended to central Texas?
I am of the opinion that their blade technology and even the ritual use of red ochre associated with it got there, but haven't seen any suggestion that the actual gene pool went farther than the eastern seaboard.
I'll keep checking back. |
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Charlie Hatchett
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 898
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Beagle wrote: | | Quote: | Interesting tidbit about the Solutreans and horseflesh.
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Charlie, I would be interested to hear anything you may have on this. Are you thinking that a Solutrean culture may have extended to central Texas?
I am of the opinion that their blade technology and even the ritual use of red ochre associated with it got there, but haven't seen any suggestion that the actual gene pool went farther than the eastern seaboard.
I'll keep checking back. |
Hey Beag.
I'm not sure if DNA was extracted from the Bosque County or Wilson-Leonard burials. If so, I'm not aware of any reports regarding the DNA. Who knows, the people responsible for Solutrean and Clovis technology might have been Neanderthal?
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Charlie Hatchett
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http://forum.preclovis.com/
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DavidCampbell
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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As I recall Doug Owlsley took the Horn Shelter remains to the Smithsonian for analysis in his last osteological survey of Paleoindian remains. I don't recall that he mentioned DNA analysis in the presentation he gave at the Bosque Museum where forensic replicas of Bosque Man are curated but it seems that it would have been high on the list of priorities as Horn Shelter and Spirit Cave are the best preserved remains available for analysis along with Kennewick Man. Apparently his analysis caused a serious rethinking of Paleoindian genetics but I haven't read anything detailed since the news broke last year.
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David Campbell
"The going's getting weird, so I'm turning pro." |
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Charlie Hatchett
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 898
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| DavidCampbell wrote: | | As I recall Doug Owlsley took the Horn Shelter remains to the Smithsonian for analysis in his last osteological survey of Paleoindian remains. I don't recall that he mentioned DNA analysis in the presentation he gave at the Bosque Museum where forensic replicas of Bosque Man are curated but it seems that it would have been high on the list of priorities as Horn Shelter and Spirit Cave are the best preserved remains available for analysis along with Kennewick Man. Apparently his analysis caused a serious rethinking of Paleoindian genetics but I haven't read anything detailed since the news broke last year. |
Yeah, I haven't heard about Wilson-Leonard either. If DNA is available for either of those, or even better, both we might learn quite a bit. I'm watching. Is there anyone you can ask from TAS about the status of Wilson-Leonard?
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Charlie Hatchett
www.preclovis.com
http://forum.preclovis.com/
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Charlie Hatchett
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 898
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Charlie Hatchett wrote: | | DavidCampbell wrote: | | As I recall Doug Owlsley took the Horn Shelter remains to the Smithsonian for analysis in his last osteological survey of Paleoindian remains. I don't recall that he mentioned DNA analysis in the presentation he gave at the Bosque Museum where forensic replicas of Bosque Man are curated but it seems that it would have been high on the list of priorities as Horn Shelter and Spirit Cave are the best preserved remains available for analysis along with Kennewick Man. Apparently his analysis caused a serious rethinking of Paleoindian genetics but I haven't read anything detailed since the news broke last year. |
Yeah, I haven't heard any news about Wilson-Leonard II either. If DNA is available for Wilson-Leonard II or Horn Shelter, or even better, both, we might learn quite a bit. I'm watching. Is there anyone you can ask from TAS about the status of Wilson-Leonard II? |
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Charlie Hatchett
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http://forum.preclovis.com/
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DavidCampbell
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 436
Location: Occupied Republic of Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Charlie, give me the title again of Collins' second paper on Wilson-Leonard and the publishing dates projected. I'll fire off an email to Collins and see if I can get the scoop straight from the source. BTW there were quite a few horse bones found at Gault too but there wasn't anything definite as regards to butcher marks as I recall. The same goes for the Lake Chapala horse skeletons but that site was only surveyed superficially according to CFSFA and needed in depth excavation as I recall. Funding at the time was not readily available.
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David Campbell
"The going's getting weird, so I'm turning pro." |
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Charlie Hatchett
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 898
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| DavidCampbell wrote: | | Charlie, give me the title again of Collins' second paper on Wilson-Leonard and the publishing dates projected. I'll fire off an email to Collins and see if I can get the scoop straight from the source. BTW there were quite a few horse bones found at Gault too but there wasn't anything definite as regards to butcher marks as I recall. The same goes for the Lake Chapala horse skeletons but that site was only surveyed superficially according to CFSFA and needed in depth excavation as I recall. Funding at the time was not readily available. |
Here you go, David:
Stratigraphic, Chronometric, and Lithic Technological Evidence for PreClovis at Wilson-Leonard, Texas. Current Research in the Pleistocene:
http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Collins%20Wilson%20Leonard.pdf
The CRIP article has obviously already been published, but no in depth report has been mentioned. Surely it's inwork?
You might also ask him his thoughts concerning the dating of the bone bed artifacts (11,400 B.P.- 11,000 B.P.) at W/L and how he deals with Mike Waters' new dating of Clovis, asserting that Clovis technology did not exist past 11,050 B.P.:
http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Waters%20Clovis%20Dating%20a.pdf
http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Waters%20Clovis%20Dating%20b.pdf
Does Mike think these artifacts, and the Clovis-like artifacts recovered in even older strata (11,400-11,500 B.P.), are preClovis?
I think the biggest artifact in the following image may be the large biface mentioned in Mike's preClovis CRIP article, recovered from the gravel strata :
http://www.phpbb88.com/nohandaxesinus/viewtopic.php?mforum=nohandaxesinus&t=60&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=3&mforum=nohandaxesinus
You might ask him that too.
Thanks for your help, David.
_________________
Charlie Hatchett
www.preclovis.com
http://forum.preclovis.com/
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