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Charlie et al check this out.
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DavidCampbell
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick, I'm eager to see these ancient tools you've collected. The one you posted looks very similar to the ones found in situ at Hueyatlaco back in the '60's described in Cynthia Irwin-Williams' 1964 report. If you have not done so already, I highly recommend that you visit Virginia Steen-McIntyre's Classic Valsequillo website where you can read and download the original reports from Valsequillo. Of course Williams balked at Hal Malde's original 250,000 dating and there is a letter there to Marie Wormington from her demonstrating her panic when Malde wanted to publish his incredible dates. Williams could not bring herself to endorse anything older than 30,000 years for any of the Valsequillo sites (Hueyatlaco, El Horno etc.) but right from the start she was catching flak from Juan Lorenzo who almost stopped the excavations dead in their tracks when the first lanceolate was found with mastodon bones older than any accepted site in the Americas. It's so very similar to Calico and Lake Manix but at least they had an abundance of clearly associated faunal remains. Anyway, one of the "Clear Fork" style chisels was found embedded in the lower maxilla of a mastodon which pretty much sealed the deal on the antiquity of the site if not the degree of that antiquity. Here is a good color exposition of the various lithics of the multihorizon Kincaid site in Texas which includes both Clear Fork and Guadalupe tools as well as the interesting paleoindian points called Angostura. Don't be misled by the very consevative estimation of the distributions and age of these lithics. They are found in abundance up here in North Texas and, IMO, predate 12,000 years by an order of magnitude.

http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/kincaid/past.html
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frank harrist



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David, all I got was this ad for tripod, but when I went to quote and write this reply the url appeared so I cut and pasted it to see the pics. Kind of an involved and laborious way to do it. Your host ain't working right or you're not posting it right, one or the other. No problem, about this one because I found the way to do it, but you might want to post it as a URL, not an image .......or something. Just wanted to let you know.
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DavidCampbell
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It must be a difference in our machines; it comes up clear as a bell on my new G4 Mac. But I will post the url in the future so nobody will miss the point, so to speak. Wink
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Charlie Hatchett



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



California...Courtesy of Pat.



Texas...

Hmmmm...I'll have to compare these a bit more, but they sure appear to be

similar technologically.

Hey David: I'm having the same problem with your

images...hmmmm.....??? Confused

Pat: I totally agree with David. You should also post your artifacts on

Virginia's site. Alot of similar stuff seems to exist in the Southern parts of

the U.S. down to Central Mexico...all associated with ancient water

features. Confused
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Charlie Hatchett



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


The timing, the geology and the archeological record fit together nicely and neatly.

It was too nice and neat for Collins, a research associate at the university’s Texas Archeological Research Laboratory. He and others began to tease it apart thread-by-thread about 25 years ago.

“We need to back up, start over and explain the peopling of the Americas with a new and rigorous explanation,” he said.

http://www.utexas.edu/research/impact/collins.html



An interesting excerpt I read again recently...My bet is Collins is preparing for a slam dunk. Note the goal implicit in his statement (2005):

Quote:

...We need to back up, start over and explain the peopling of the Americas with a new and rigorous explanation...



Quote:

Fig.5: Chipped stone artifacts from layers below well defined Clovis deposits at Gault; it is not yet known whether these are earlier Clovis or preClovis cultural remains (photo: Gault Archeological Project).

http://www.athenapub.com/10gault.htm


Conviently missing from the report...



In press since 2004:

Quote:

Stratigraphic, Chronometric, and Lithic Technological Evidence for PreClovis at Wilson-Leonard, Texas. Current Research in the Pleistocene

http://www.stoneagefair.com/Mike_Collins_Vitae.doc



Mike Waters, A&M, is deeply involved with Gault, Hueyatlaco, and El Horno. Samples from the Hueyatlaco Ash overlying both Hueyatlaco and El Horno were taken and were analyzed...in 2004. 2 long years and not even a preliminary report....why? I feel these guys are about to shock the world: Archeological evidence of human existence in the Americas prior to Africa.

You can imagine, in their postions, why they would be so thorough before

announcing this kind of evidence.
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DavidCampbell
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try this url for I.T.Crow's Guadalupe tools and Kerrville knives. His Kerrville knife is a massive chopper looking tool made of what looks like blue chert. There's also a pdf online of David Calame Sr.'s examination of Guadalupe tools from near the Medina River. Calame states that the humpbacked tools are exclusively found in South Texas but over a dozen examples from the North Sulphur River curated in the Fannin County Historical Museum proves this is simply not the case. I have a photo of some of these tools that I took at Joe Brown's house when he donated them to the museum but they are not the clearest. At some point I need to get better ones from the examples at the museum; the last ones my wife took are not much of an improvement. At this time I am somewhat technologically challenged and lacking the hardware to reshoot the artifacts. Sad

http://ltcrow1.tripod.com/tools.html
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Cognito



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:39 am    Post subject: Kincaid Site Reply with quote

David wrote:
Quote:
Don't be misled by the very consevative estimation of the distributions and age of these lithics. They are found in abundance up here in North Texas and, IMO, predate 12,000 years by an order of magnitude.

Thanks for the link to the Kincaid site. Many sites appear to date before 12,000 years by an order of magnitude but getting archaeologists in general to admit that and do the work necessary to date them properly will take some time. Surface lithics in the area I visit have been dated to 18-20,000bp by Fred Budinger of the Calico dig. However, since the hill is eroding, they may be far older. Just like Texas someone was there before Clovis making tools.

Hopefully, I'll be able to post pictures over this weekend. Charlie's recommendation of Picasso seems to have worked (thanks Charlie) and now all I need to do is prioritize the time. Shocked
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Cognito



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:14 pm    Post subject: Shock Value Reply with quote

Charlie wrote:
Quote:
Mike Waters, A&M, is deeply involved with Gault, Hueyatlaco, and El Horno. Samples from the Hueyatlaco Ash overlying both Hueyatlaco and El Horno were taken and were analyzed...in 2004. 2 long years and not even a preliminary report....why? I feel these guys are about to shock the world: Archeological evidence of human existence in the Americas prior to Africa.
You can imagine, in their postions, why they would be so thorough before
announcing this kind of evidence.


Charlie, I would love to see these guys make such an announcement just for the shock value (I love stepping on paradigms). Cool Hominids in the Americas prior to HSS dispersal from Africa would turn everything upside down. And it could explain this:

http://www.corante.com/loom/archives/026325.html
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frank harrist



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So do you think neanderthals were here or maybe some other pre-sapien humanoid? Evidence points to a colonization and subsequent extinction or maybe they were killed of when HS came here. I'm not sure what ya'll are getting at, but I do see the evidence and it is mounting and it seems credible. It's huge if it pans out. Gots to have lotsa proof though. I'm almost convinced, but I'm easy. (said the resident sceptic) Rolling Eyes
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Cognito



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:55 am    Post subject: Hominids Reply with quote

Frank wrote:
Quote:
So do you think neanderthals were here or maybe some other pre-sapien humanoid? Evidence points to a colonization and subsequent extinction or maybe they were killed of when HS came here. I'm not sure what ya'll are getting at, but I do see the evidence and it is mounting and it seems credible. It's huge if it pans out. Gots to have lotsa proof though. I'm almost convinced, but I'm easy. (said the resident sceptic)

No, I don't believe neanderthals ever made it east of the Caucasus. However, I suspect that the anomolous finds from Valsequillo, Calico, and other areas will prove to be Homo Erectus. In addition to all the tools that are being found, how else do you explain the head lice? The fallback position is that a small HSS population in Asia was infected by Homo Erectus and then traveled to America ... And no other HSS populations weere infected? And they all went to America? ... gimme a break. The odds of that scenario are less than the odds of Homo Erectus floating to America over 100,000 years ago on a raft (the Japan current would take 83 days or less without paddling and we know they built rafts; ie Flores occupation).
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DavidCampbell
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, Cognito; since these dates from Hueyatlaco and Calico predate HSS I think the most likely candidate is Homo Erectus for the same reasons you give. The Ulalinka and Diring sites are very good evidence that some form of hominid was already adapted to the cold prior to 260,000 YBP and HE demonstrates an ability navigate which as far as I know, Neaderthal does not. This points to two possible migration routes, by land via Beringia during the glacial maximum or by sea either by Pacific currents or island hopping. Moreover the skull Solarzano found in his collections appears to be HE rather than Neanderthal. It seems to me that HE was perhaps even more adaptive if not smarter than Neaderthal and certainly more widely travelled. Laughing

Also the features of the Horn Shelter individuals and those of the Spirit Cave mummies seem to indicate that transitional features were still present as late as the Late Paleoindian/Early Archaic. It could be that a substantial period of evolution took place right here in the Americas.
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Charlie Hatchett



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Charlie, I would love to see these guys make such an announcement just for the shock value (I love stepping on paradigms). icon_cool.gif Hominids in the Americas prior to HSS dispersal from Africa would turn everything upside down. And it could explain this:

http://www.corante.com/loom/archives/026325.html


Nice correlation Pat. Thanks for the link.

Quote:

So do you think neanderthals were here or maybe some other pre-sapien humanoid? Evidence points to a colonization and subsequent extinction or maybe they were killed of when HS came here. I'm not sure what ya'll are getting at, but I do see the evidence and it is mounting and it seems credible. It's huge if it pans out. Gots to have lotsa proof though. I'm almost convinced, but I'm easy. (said the resident sceptic) Rolling Eyes



Frank, I'm pretty much convinced that "modern" behaving man was in the Americas prior to the supposed evolution of "modern" Homo Sapien and Neanderthal in Africa and Europe.


Quote:
No, I don't believe neanderthals ever made it east of the Caucasus. However, I suspect that the anomolous finds from Valsequillo, Calico, and other areas will prove to be Homo Erectus. In addition to all the tools that are being found, how else do you explain the head lice? The fallback position is that a small HSS population in Asia was infected by Homo Erectus and then traveled to America ... And no other HSS populations weere infected? And they all went to America? ... gimme a break. The odds of that scenario are less than the odds of Homo Erectus floating to America over 100,000 years ago on a raft (the Japan current would take 83 days or less without paddling and we know they built rafts; ie Flores occupation).



Pat, I've also hypothesized a sea route, from Western Africa, to South America, Central America, Mexico, and the Southern and Eastern portions of the U.S.




With only the sea current and prevailing Easterly winds, the trip could be made in 6-7 days. And the current goes full circle, again, passing by Africa....
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Cognito



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: Sea Currents Reply with quote

Charlie wrote:
Quote:
With only the sea current and prevailing Easterly winds, the trip could be made in 6-7 days. And the current goes full circle, again, passing by Africa....

Bearing in mind that prevailing winds can take the boat/raft out of the current, do you know how fast the current runs from east to west? (I want to get a conservative estimate). Thanks.

The Kuroshio Current off Japan travels to the Pacific Northwest at an average 3 knots. At a distance of 6,000 miles that would get someone to the shoreline in about 83 days without paddling, sailing, etc. If they went during marine migrations, they would eat along the way if they knew how to fish.
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Charlie Hatchett



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Bearing in mind that prevailing winds can take the boat/raft out of the current, do you know how fast the current runs from east to west? (I want to get a conservative estimate). Thanks.


The current ranges from Ca. 2-5 knots. The winds range from ca. 25 knots in the morning, to 10 knots by nightfall. Remember, it's the prevailing trade winds that drive the overall flow of the current. So I think the trade winds would normally be right on with the current. And the craft would certainly not be exempt from aerodynamic forces in either your case or mine.
Assuming you have and average of 3.5 knots generated by water current, and a conservative 6.5 knots generated by the aerodynamic drag on the craft and individuals traveling in it, the Ca. 1600 nm between the African West Coast and the Brazilian East Coast could be traveled in Ca. 7 days. Taking only the current into account, the trip could be made in Ca. 16.5 days.
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Last edited by Charlie Hatchett on Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Cognito



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Africa to Brazil Reply with quote

Charlie wrote:
Quote:
Assuming you have and average of 3.5 knots of generated by water current, and a conservative 6.5 knots generated by the aerodynamic drag on the craft and individuals traveling in it, the Ca. 1600 nm between the African West Coast and the Brazilian East Coast could be traveled in Ca. 7 days. Taking only the current into account, the trip could be made in Ca. 16.5 days.

That's really not long to be out on the ocean. Boating was certainly taking place by 50,000bp and a one to two week crossing following marine life along the way is quite feasible. Now all we need are some skeletal remains to date. Some teeth would be nice for genetic analysis also. Am I asking too much? Shocked
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