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Artifact or Geofact?
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Charlie Hatchett



Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 898
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm just shakin' my head. Confused


Well, at least we agree it's man made...I think some are missing a bigger

picture. I contend these ancient type "cores" (like Al's above and some of my

cores) are actually 3D rock sculptures.
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DavidCampbell
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While both are cores from the reduction of a nodule to produce usable flakes and blades, that's where I would leave the comparison when communicating with the likes of Al Goodyear, if I anticipated a serious response. While the artist residing in the right side of my brain can readily discern the saurid imagery on the stones and holistically relate them to the Ica Stones, the left side which has thus far kept me out of extra longsleeved jackets and the institution at Terrell, Texas, would not mention such apperceptions to those whose credence I might desire in the future. Cool
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Charlie Hatchett



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
While both are cores from the reduction of a nodule to produce usable flakes and blades, that's where I would leave the comparison when communicating with the likes of Al Goodyear, if I anticipated a serious response. While the artist residing in the right side of my brain can readily discern the saurid imagery on the stones and holistically relate them to the Ica Stones, the left side which has thus far kept me out of extra longsleeved jackets and the institution at Terrell, Texas, would not mention such apperceptions to those whose credence I might desire in the future. Cool


My answer is: If I feel that it's really true, why not bring it up.

Even if he doesn't respond, it may get him to thinking...

That core is a dead ringer for a 3D bird sculpture. The symmetry (sorry

Frank...going right brain on ya') on all three dimensions is amazing!

And it's greater than 50,000 years old. It also has the iron staining and

heavy carbonate coating overlying worked rock. Alot of parallels

separated by many miles...


Through researching Old World lithics, I've found amazing similarities

between the "baboon head" sculptures, and what I'm calling bird

sculptures:

http://www.originsnet.org/oldowangallery1/pages/d)anvbabhdflkn.htm

Note the overall morphology, and then note the oval eye.

Here's a couple local examples:



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/afw207.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/afw206a.jpg

Note the heavy iron and carbon staining. There's a whole secure stratum

of this stuff. It rests on a 10-18' of very fine clay/ silt. The iron/carbon

stained chert nodule stratum is very narrow...maybe10-12". The stratum

is disected by the creek, but continues on both sides throughout the

entire exposed alluvium. My hypothesis is these iron/carbon stained chert

nodules were casts for metal pourings, orginally located just upstream

around the furnace area. When the major alluvial event that swept all the

gravel from the hill country downstream, and deposited the local gravel

bar, initiated, it swept the subject iron/carbon stained chert nodules

downstream and deposited them on the silty/clay shoreline. The gravel

followed, and was deposited on top of these nodules and underlying

silt/clay strata.



This alluvial event is recorded by Collin's and crew upstream as sometime

prior to 15,700 B.P. (correlation with local bog data). The time period prior

to the major alluvial event is described as one of extended drought. I

don't see this being The Wisconsin Period, characterized as abnormally

wet and cool locally.

I think we have to back up to The Sangamon Interglacial: ca. 125,000

B.P. to get an extended drought. From 15,700 B.P. back until the end of

The Sangamon Interglacial is well documented to have been very wet and

cool locally.


Now tell me, does any of this sound any less crazy than these ancient

inhabitants carving 3D sculptures? Confused
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effigy



Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
Quote:
that's where I would leave the comparison when communicating with the likes of Al Goodyear, if I anticipated a serious response


Charlie, it is your choice to express your many interesting opinions Wink
Just keep in mind bro, that the science of archaeology can be particularly brutal. Crying or Very sad I'll shut on this one now.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Only a suggestion: Your posts might be easier to read if they were formatted to take up less space.

Best,
Jeff
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DavidCampbell
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Skiles posted the following artifact for identification on the main TAS list; I thought of Charlie immediately when I saw it.

"The attached photos illustrate a groundstone item found on the surface within or near a prehistoric terrace site near the Russell Fork of the San Gabriel River in eastern Burnet County. Artifacts date the site to Middle (a Nolan/Travis or two) to Late (a fair amount of what you'd expect) Archaic with possibly a bit of Late Prehistoric (I've only seen a couple of photos). The material is a stream rolled cobble, that looks like chert, but the ground "bit" end has a visible crystalline structure. There appears to be wear extending past the bevel, but this may be differential weathering. It is not highly polished, but is very smooth. The ventral face is slightly "oranger" in appearance, especially near the "hafting" end. "


http://skiles.net/1.jpg
http://skiles.net/2.jpg
http://skiles.net/3.jpg
http://skiles.net/4.jpg
http://skiles.net/5.jpg
http://skiles.net/6.jpg
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frank harrist



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
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Location: Northeast Texas

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a very odd artifact. How big is it? How much does it weigh? Does anyone have any idea as to what the hell it is? How it was hafted? I've never seen anything like it. Weapon? Tool? Ceremonial? WTF? It's cool, whatever it is.
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Charlie Hatchett



Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 898
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
David wrote:

that's where I would leave the comparison when communicating with the likes of Al Goodyear, if I anticipated a serious response



Quote:
Charlie, it is your choice to express your many interesting opinions icon_wink.gif
Just keep in mind bro, that the science of archaeology can be particularly brutal. icon_cry.gif I'll shut on this one now.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Only a suggestion: Your posts might be easier to read if they were formatted to take up less space.

Best,
Jeff


Hi Jeff.

Yeah, I understand what your trying to say. I've just never been much of a
politician. The thought of maintaining the status quo to be accepted into "the good ol' boy's club" pretty much turns my stomach.

How's the cave exploration going?
I'd love to see some more close ups of the effigies. The horses are way cool!! Cool
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Charlie Hatchett



Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 898
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bob Skiles posted the following artifact for identification on the main TAS list; I thought of Charlie immediately when I saw it.

"The attached photos illustrate a groundstone item found on the surface within or near a prehistoric terrace site near the Russell Fork of the San Gabriel River in eastern Burnet County. Artifacts date the site to Middle (a Nolan/Travis or two) to Late (a fair amount of what you'd expect) Archaic with possibly a bit of Late Prehistoric (I've only seen a couple of photos). The material is a stream rolled cobble, that looks like chert, but the ground "bit" end has a visible crystalline structure. There appears to be wear extending past the bevel, but this may be differential weathering. It is not highly polished, but is very smooth. The ventral face is slightly "oranger" in appearance, especially near the "hafting" end. "


Cool David.

It's hard to tell from the photo, but if you turn the first photo 90 degrees to the right, is there an indention where an eye would be placed in a bird effigy?
If so, the two bevels could be interpreted as the bird's beak. The potential
iron staining on the ventral surface is particularly interesting.

I'm up at the coffee shop right now. I've been promised by my new ISP that they will have me hooked up at home by Wednesday...

I've got the rough draft of the preliminary report on the Hatchett Site completed, and I'd like you guys to help me tear it to shreds before I send it out to any of the pros. I'll try to get it posted here by Wednesday.

Peace. Cool
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effigy



Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie Hatchett wrote:



How's the cave exploration going?
I'd love to see some more close ups of the effigies. The horses are way cool!! Cool


Charlie, I've had no choice but to step back from my archeo interests, after the April 13 Tornado visited my house.
The whole "tornado package" has been much more difficult than I ever thought...finding money, arguing with insurance, work work work, and a whole host of things one would never expect. Tomorrow, I'm meeting with a different insurance person and I'll be well prepared. The bottom line there will be they need to pull thier heads out immediately, and pay me all of what they owe, or I'll let the State Insurance Comission handle it.

I did make a couple visits to the site in early Spring, and as usual, documennted some good stuff. I havent even had time to visit the forum more than 1-2 a week lately. I am looking forward to some vacation time in October though. The weather is beautiful then. I'll be making it a point to do some nice, quite site visits. One thing I want to do there is build a "scaffold" out of local logs/trees in front of the cliff adjacent to the cave, so I can get an up-close look...
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Charlie Hatchett



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Charlie, I've had no choice but to step back from my archeo interests, after the April 13 Tornado visited my house.
The whole "tornado package" has been much more difficult than I ever thought...finding money, arguing with insurance, work work work, and a whole host of things one would never expect. Tomorrow, I'm meeting with a different insurance person and I'll be well prepared. The bottom line there will be they need to pull thier heads out immediately, and pay me all of what they owe, or I'll let the State Insurance Comission handle it.

I did make a couple visits to the site in early Spring, and as usual, documennted some good stuff. I havent even had time to visit the forum more than 1-2 a week lately. I am looking forward to some vacation time in October though. The weather is beautiful then. I'll be making it a point to do some nice, quite site visits. One thing I want to do there is build a "scaffold" out of local logs/trees in front of the cliff adjacent to the cave, so I can get an up-close look...


Ouch...I had no idea. Sounds like you are going through hell. Sorry dude!
Hopefully things will get better soon.
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Charlie Hatchett



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Charlie...I would have to guess that these are geofacts.


These can be tough, but if you look at the distal view of each piece, you'll notice the semi-circular notches and flake channels indicative of knapping:




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20362.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Distal View- 4.5"- Lima-Igl

___________________________________________________________



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20365.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Distal View- 4"- Lima-Igl

____________________________________________________________




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20367.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Distal View- 7.5"- Lima-Igl
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DavidCampbell
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just from the haphazard flake pattern, or lack thereof, I'd lean toward geofact on this one, Charlie. It just looks too unweildy to be a tool, even for an extremely old one like Acheulian. The edge looks blunted rather than sharpened like even a unifacial tool.
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Charlie Hatchett



Joined: 06 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Charlie, after viewing an artifact/geofact discussion that you started on another website - I would have to guess that these are geofacts.



Quote:


Charlie, after viewing an artifact/geofact discussion that you started on another website - I would have to guess that these are geofacts.

These can be tough, but if you look at the distal view of each piece, you'll notice the semi-circular notches and flake channels indicative of knapping:




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20362.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Distal View- 4.5"- Lima-Igl

___________________________________________________________



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20365.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Distal View- 4"- Lima-Igl

____________________________________________________________




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20367.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Distal View- 7.5"- Lima-Igl
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Quote:

My opinion is that these are large pieces which were knocked off in the initial part of the knapping process and then discarded as other parts were used. The small chips on the edges are from being rolled downstream with other rocks. They aren't refined ebough for a human to have done them for a reason. Or.....they could just be totally geofacts. They don't look like tools to me. Only possible debitage.



Quote:

The small chips on the edges are from being rolled downstream with other rocks. They aren't refined ebough for a human to have done them for a reason.


Quote:
But, then, why would they small "chips" only be on the side that's the narrowest? Why not all over the piece?
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Quote:
Because that's the weakest edge?


Quote:
What kind of stone is that, Charlie?




Quote:
Not sure, Min. Doesn't look like chert, does it?
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Quote:
Doesn't look like flint, either.


I went back and checked. They're quartzite:



Quote:
A little research turn up the fact that the most common tool materials in Africa, during the Acheulean, were quartzite, glassy lava, chert and flint.
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Quote:


But the proximal sides on the artifacts, which are squared off, and provide an easy, natural chip opportunity at the corners, aren't chipped. Confused

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20360.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Dorsal View- 4.5"- Lima-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20361.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Ventral View- 4.5"- Lima-Igl

Note the carbonate still covering the piece...no chipped edges in quite some time.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20362.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Distal View- 4.5"- Lima-Igl

____________________________________________________________

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20363.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Dorsal View- 4"- Lima-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20364.jpg

Again, look at the corners...why aren't they chipped?

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20365.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Distal View- 4"- Lima-Igl

_________________________________________________________

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20368.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Dorsal View- 7.5"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20366.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Ventral View- 7.5"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20367.jpg

Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Distal View- 7.5"- Lima-Igl

No way this long, deep, flake channel was created naturally. The impact is way to focused.
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Quote:

Pardon a dumb question - on rocks:

How easy/hard is it to tell if an interesting piece is a discard vs. a finished tool vs. nothing but a rock.

Don't give up on me Charlie, I'm getting a little better.


Quote:

Give up on you...??? Confused

Don't give up on me!! Shocked

We're on the very edge here, Bro.

My criteria with stone, is definitive evidence of knapping.

In this gravel alluvium, from where these pieces are unraveling, there's geofacts galore. The only sure way, is definitive evidence of knapping.
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